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Maggette


Total Posts: 943
Joined: Jun 2007
 
Posted: 2014-08-12 22:13
Hi,

I was thinking about a "problem" a while ago and in that context remembered an interesting thread about stress relief, which also had a lot of interesting scientific stuff on execise and sports.

So I thought the off topic section of this phorum might be an interesting place to start a discussion with people who solve problems in complex and dynamic systems and aren't biased.

I spare you the details why I am interested in the field, just wanted to state that I trained with/under some very good athletes/coaches, some of them pro and elite level (boxing, decathletes, basketball, some mma), but when it comes to execise science I am self taught.

My problem: everybody involved in combat sports, field/team sports or decathlon like events has to battle the same problem when it comes to his/her athletic training: your sports demands different physical abilties that are hard to balance or do have an negative impact on each other (or training the skill as negative side effects...having a huge VO2max isn't bad for your vertical leap...what else comes with the training is bad for it:)).

Depending on your sport you need to have endurance (specialized endurance. basic endurance) as well as speed and explosive power, eventually strength and weight is also an advantage.

There is a lot of talk from strength and conditioning experts like Mike Boyle, Mark Verstegen and Vern Gambetta how bad base endurance is for the explosive athlete etc. A lot of this is to me just their personal opinion, but you get the picture.

Hence we have a kind of multi objective optimization problem.

Furthermore, the stuff is very noisy. Our understanding of the human adaption proccess is still not very good. So to me it appears a little bit of an "black box" problem, hence training is kind of an cybernetic/control problem

In this context I thought about the 2 huge periodization models: block periodization vs linear periodization.

Here is "pro block periodization" article that gives a nice review about the history of periodization models.
Article by Issurin


Long story short: block periodization has shorter training cycles (sometime only two weeks), in which the athelte focuses on one physical ability (say specific anerobic conditionig) and spends only minimum time on training on other factors (explosive power, base endurance, flexibility, strength..).

My best trainer when it came to physical education were the guys from the decathlon camp and also one of the strength and conditiong teams from the boxers. They were all block peridoization guys.

Their heuristic argument was like: your body has only a limited "adaption potential". You kind of send him a noisy signal, and he does not adapt in an optimal way.

I found this quite common sense and they told me it was backed by studies. I also read some books on the topic from guys from the "pro block" camp. It also worked well for me.

I just discussed the stuff with some of my sparring partners who are crossfit evangelist (we should not discuss religion on this phorum..crossfitters seem to be pretty religous) and searched a little bit on the web: and thins seems to be less clear than I thought:
like this
Training several abilities can work (even though it loosk a lot like: endurance athletes can benefit from strength work...which is a result I already found in a "pro block" book from one of my heros:
SST for Coaches


Sure, the problem is very hard to tackle from an empirical point of view. Still: does anybody has an opinion on this? Good research? Do you think there will be a kind of definite answer?

Thanks

Ich kam hierher und sah dich und deine Leute lächeln, und sagte mir: Maggette, scheiss auf den small talk, lass lieber deine Fäuste sprechen...

jslade


Total Posts: 1070
Joined: Feb 2007
 
Posted: 2014-08-12 23:18
I am an atheist when it comes to crossfit, though I did train with kettlebells and crazy drop sets of burpees back when I was doing Brazilian jiu jitsu, and it was very helpful in increasing both over all wind and strength endurance without having the crap beat out of me. I think CF type training fails when they have you attempt ridiculously high skill feats like doing the snatch for high reps. That's just being a dumbass. I think CF is also counter to most people's goals. It's basically a form of conditioning. When I did karate, we'd just go roadwork, or do stuff like bear crawls or squat crawls; just as effective and much safer than CF. If you want to make it more miserable and sadistic; do your roadwork barefoot, in a gi, in the snow. Puke

There are so many variables involved in training, I think multi-objective optimizations, even towards the same goal, will be different for everyone, depending on their diet, rest/recovery ability, individual potential and history. On any given day, I may have vastly different cardio abilities depending on what I ate and how well I slept (cortisol problems and mild asthma). Usually my strength is about the same though. One thing I would have done differently if I could go back in time is deemphasize low reps. 3 working sets of 10 is pretty good advice in general if you train with weights. I think the other rep ranges are just to give dipshits who write training articles something to talk about. At least that's what my old bones say. For general health, I'm mostly doing Vince Gironda type stuff these days; higher reps, supersetted, with emphasis on muscle groups that make you look better rather than brute strength. My traps are no longer as monstrous, but I feel better.

That said, I think block periodization should be limited to athletes who train and compete at an elite level, and have a coach. Otherwise, you stand the risk of never getting anywhere. People with day jobs should probably stick with linear training. The training notebook will tell all.

"Learning, n. The kind of ignorance distinguishing the studious."

Maggette


Total Posts: 943
Joined: Jun 2007
 
Posted: 2014-08-13 00:12
Thanks for the reply jslade. Interesting as always.

Regarding the CF stuff: I think people who did a competitive sport at one point in their life and went to some heavy High Intensity Interval Training stuff or sadistic circuits by former warsaw pact coaches (like the both of us) tzend to be a little bit offended by their "toughest workout" and "unfuckwitable" bravado. I mean: back in the days we had track girls running 400s until they threw up...and they didn't made a cult out of it:).

Furthermore I think there is a lot of nonsense in the CF world when it comes to methodology (absolute non existence of pure speed/explosive power work => by far not enough jumping and sprinting with full recovery+ I do not understand what the insane randomization of the workouts are intended to do ...besides probably mental toughness).

But anyway: I did have up to 11 training sessions per week in my insane "semi pro" level days. The Block Periodization (BP) felt kind of natural and rewarding (you are progressing at a faster rate in the stuff you put emphasis on and you tend to enjoy the session were you only do maintainance work).

I recently worked out two quite good MMA fighters preparing them for a fight and agreed with the coaches on a block training kind of approach. It worked well.

Of course these stories are anectodal, but are enough to feed my confirmation bias.

I will start to log my own training again pretty soon. Right now I am working out very irregular, something between 3-5 session a week with very flucctuating intensity. I feel good but I am not improving. I will try to do a program that is like BP as an self experiment: does BP work for training volumes that are below olympians?:).

Ich kam hierher und sah dich und deine Leute lächeln, und sagte mir: Maggette, scheiss auf den small talk, lass lieber deine Fäuste sprechen...

jslade


Total Posts: 1070
Joined: Feb 2007
 
Posted: 2014-08-13 02:08
Well, in favor of CF, at least it is getting middle class cube dwellers to work out. Much better an insufferable cube ape who exercises seriously (if stupidly) to one who grows fat and weak with time.

I'm sure BP works for that kind of schedule, and for a sport spanning as many physical qualities as MMA, it is probably crucial. The thing is, regular joes like me only do 3-5 days a week of relatively mild training. I have a friend who has naturally grown from a 150lb shrimp to a 220lb gorilla in a few years of linear training, 3-5 days a week, with excellent dietary discipline. The only thing my pal has changed is the size of the barbells, and the amounts of food he consumes. The guy in the gym who needs to change every 2 weeks to avoid "staleness" is the same size and shape as he was before.

"Learning, n. The kind of ignorance distinguishing the studious."

chiral3
Founding Member

Total Posts: 4988
Joined: Mar 2004
 
Posted: 2014-08-13 17:07
Lest this devolve into another CF bashing commentary, some more musings

- Agree with the comment that high-rep snatches, clean and jerk, as well as certain plyometrics etc. are a recipe for disaster in CF (although injuries appear to be worshiped in the culture)
- CF is not training. It is great for weight loss and general fitness, up to a point, and then it will stop. Power lifting, rowing, running, and cycling can only be advanced at higher levels with specific training, most of which has been known a long time ago. I think jslades last comment hits on this: the guy doing 5x5s and super squats linear in weight for a few years is going to grow.
- CF is also effective at weight loss and general fitness because it uses confusion, which also helps counter drops in motivation
- One of the most interesting things about CF for me is the social / indoctrination aspect. It is no different than a gang or the military. They have their own jargon to distinguish "us" versus "them" (crush that WAD, those metcons really helped me hit my pr); watching them positively support each other verges on the maniacal; diets are stressed to be in the club; there are numerous anecdotes about marriages that are losing fidelity to CF

Nonius is Satoshi Nakamoto. 物の哀れ

Nonius
Founding Member
Nonius Unbound
Total Posts: 12666
Joined: Mar 2004
 
Posted: 2014-08-13 23:38
Jslade is the new KR.

Chiral is Tyler Durden

jslade


Total Posts: 1070
Joined: Feb 2007
 
Posted: 2014-08-14 00:29
While deeply humbled by the honor, I have to ask: does the role pay well?

"Learning, n. The kind of ignorance distinguishing the studious."

Strange


Total Posts: 1346
Joined: Jun 2004
 
Posted: 2014-08-14 17:36

Interesting to see this on NP Worship General experience has been varied. A minor point is that majority of training literature is not really geared toward skill-oriented sports (the usual example is Russian weightlifters) and skill-training has a drastically-different life cycle.  Also, there is a lot of noise on the web from various crossfit-like cults.

I have tried training both ways, my sport is very technical and I am considered an "aged" athlete so injury prevention is high on my list. Blocking out periods for endurance/strength/power etc is good since you can concentrate on a specific aspect and can target fairly predictable performance peaks. Linear periodisation, however, has the advantage of keeping all of your skills/aspects in play - i found that if i concentrate on something specific for a few weeks, other aspects lapse. So, my personal solution is "block-focused linear periodisation" - I work on endurance/strength/power in any given week, however I allocate 4-week periods where I have extra-sessions for a specific aspect (usually my current weakness).

 


It's buy futures, sell futures, when there is no future!

Maggette


Total Posts: 943
Joined: Jun 2007
 
Posted: 2014-08-14 23:14
Hi.

short note: block training prescribes "maintainance work" on all stuff you ain't focussing on. So probably your "block focused" linear approach is pretty much block training.

Thanks for everybody who contributed...

edit: dito on the strange CF cultists

Ich kam hierher und sah dich und deine Leute lächeln, und sagte mir: Maggette, scheiss auf den small talk, lass lieber deine Fäuste sprechen...

Maggette


Total Posts: 943
Joined: Jun 2007
 
Posted: 2014-08-27 22:40
Hi,

I wanted toi share some videos linked to the topic of the thread that might be of interest to people who are interested in that stuff.


Sadly I only found it in french/german. Some interesting stuff on biomechanics. You can find most of the other parts of each series on youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7ELqaw2sDQ

TED

An absolute beast (wait until his plyometric drills and his hurdle sprints...unreal for a guy of his size)...french only though:

Werner Gunthor

Part one, you can find the rest on youtube

Ich kam hierher und sah dich und deine Leute lächeln, und sagte mir: Maggette, scheiss auf den small talk, lass lieber deine Fäuste sprechen...

Maggette


Total Posts: 943
Joined: Jun 2007
 
Posted: 2017-07-23 21:45
A very interesting dude working in this field:

Police and shooting under stress
How execrise science is different for the statistical outlier
On sport scientists in general

Ich kam hierher und sah dich und deine Leute lächeln, und sagte mir: Maggette, scheiss auf den small talk, lass lieber deine Fäuste sprechen...

jslade


Total Posts: 1070
Joined: Feb 2007
 
Posted: 2017-08-02 04:53
On the topic of Werner Gunthor, Ricky Bruch's documentary "The Soul is Greater than the World" is online:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaXWvOc7voY



"Learning, n. The kind of ignorance distinguishing the studious."
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