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TSWP


Total Posts: 366
Joined: May 2012
 
Posted: 2015-09-07 15:48
I was curious to know if anyone on this phorum has followed the recent developments in Low Energy Nuclear Reaction devices generating anomalous heat production, if you have any direct knowledge from insiders working in the energy field saying that LENR is being seriously considered to substitute nuclear, oil, wind and solar plants in the next few years.

Most information available on the internet on the LENR topic are very vague and amateurish, although some patents (including US) have been granted in the last few years and also in 2015, and some large players (Shell, NASA, the Japanese Government, etc.) have set up their own LENR research labs, but no-one knows if they can really deliver commercially viable energy generators.

Just curious if anyone has first-hand information on this.

"I wouldn’t have done well in an Olympiad or a math contest. But I like to ponder. And pondering things, just sort of thinking about it and thinking about it, turns out to be a pretty good approach." - Jim Simons

purbani


Total Posts: 89
Joined: Apr 2005
 
Posted: 2015-09-09 10:40
I'm no physicist but from the little I have read about it the evidence in support seems very very slight with people like Rossi and Focardi giving the entire 'field' a bad name. Some better informed comments in this article

TSWP


Total Posts: 366
Joined: May 2012
 
Posted: 2015-09-09 11:14
> from the little I have read about it the evidence in support seems very very slight with people like Rossi and Focardi giving the entire 'field' a bad name.

Well, Focardi died a couple years ago, but Rossi apparently had been granted a US Patent: us9115913b1.
Attached File: us9115913b1.pdf

Plus a US company called Industrial Heat LLC has bought the rights to his energy production device in 2012:

"Mr. Vaughn confirmed IH acquired the intellectual property and licensing rights to Rossi's LENR device after an independent committee of European scientists conducted two multi-day tests at Rossi's facilities in Italy. The published report by the European committee concluded, "Even by the most conservative assumptions as to the errors in the measurements, the result is still one order of magnitude greater than conventional energy sources" [referring to energy output per unit of mass]. The report is available online at http://arxiv.org/abs/1305.3913. In addition, performance validation tests were conducted in the presence of IH personnel and certified by an independent expert."

I find it hard to believe that these guys from Industrial Heat LLC (read this 2015 article about them) have not even checked what they were buying, and poured millions of dollars into the venture and their parent company (Cherokee) is a 2 Billion USD investor, you don't get that type of money if you are a complete moron.

On top of this there are a number of other "replicators" out there that seem to have achieved similar results and are trying to learn how to make it into a viable commercial product, I am not going to post links, there is plenty of info about this on the net.

The question is: this stuff would put oil companies (and many other energy companies) completely out of business, IF it works for real.

Hence the nature of my question: has anyone direct info on this? From some insiders that can say "yes, this is real".

Additional hint: is the recent Oil demise correlated? I am just speculating here, but the Oil correction started when Rossi published a study at the end of last summer 2014, showing the results of his energy-reactor working for some time in Lugano, with surprising results (high COP, etc.). Probably there is no correlation, as Ray Dalio would say, just a coincidence, but still it looks like a very phunny coincidence.

"I wouldn’t have done well in an Olympiad or a math contest. But I like to ponder. And pondering things, just sort of thinking about it and thinking about it, turns out to be a pretty good approach." - Jim Simons

Tradenator


Total Posts: 1579
Joined: Sep 2006
 
Posted: 2015-09-09 12:15
You need to start with Fleischmann and Pons, not Rossi and Focardi. I was a student when this nonsense first started and can remember all the papers flying around the place debunking it. So far, I'm still surprised that this nonsense was allowed to be published in the first place, but I do understand human nature and how it got carried on into science fiction and conspiracy theory afterwards.

To get the two deuterons to react (fusion) you need to either increase the temperature (eg, stars) or magically reduce the width of the Coulomb barrier in the wave function.

I think these people are arguing that condensed matter many body effects at room temperature can magically squeeze the Coulomb barrier enough to entice a nuclear interaction. I don't think so, but then again I have not been near this type of research for a long time, and quantum mechanics as we know it could be wrong.

Patrik
Founding Member

Total Posts: 1333
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Posted: 2015-09-09 14:17
Can't comment on the physics but the oil correction is defiantly completely unrelated to any new source of energy - no need for fancy conspiracy type theories when you have an oversupply of oil itself :)

Capital Structure Demolition LLC Radiation

TSWP


Total Posts: 366
Joined: May 2012
 
Posted: 2015-09-09 14:34
> the oil correction is defiantly completely unrelated to any new source of energy - no need for fancy conspiracy type theories when you have an oversupply of oil itself :)

agreed

"I wouldn’t have done well in an Olympiad or a math contest. But I like to ponder. And pondering things, just sort of thinking about it and thinking about it, turns out to be a pretty good approach." - Jim Simons

TSWP


Total Posts: 366
Joined: May 2012
 
Posted: 2015-09-09 14:40
>I think these people are arguing that condensed matter many body effects at room temperature can magically squeeze the Coulomb barrier enough to entice a nuclear interaction. I don't think so, but then again I have not been near this type of research for a long time, and quantum mechanics as we know it could be wrong.


I am not an expert in this field so I cannot comment on the nature of the reaction or the theory of it.

I am interested in the disruption-of-an-industry that may be generated by a new energy product because a) it has relevance for my market research on energy markets and b) it may have a number of consequences for the economy and every day life, although we are probably still very far from a commercially viable application in this case.

"I wouldn’t have done well in an Olympiad or a math contest. But I like to ponder. And pondering things, just sort of thinking about it and thinking about it, turns out to be a pretty good approach." - Jim Simons

TSWP


Total Posts: 366
Joined: May 2012
 
Posted: 2015-09-13 11:16
For the sake of additional information, I am pasting a description of the "Rossi effect":

Until Rossi discovered the Rossi Effect there were basically only two categories of LENR studied:
1. Palladium – Deuterium(the original Cold Fusion process)
2. Nickel – Hydrogen
The Rossi Effect is a completely new discovery in the field of LENR technology and raises the available power density of LENR processes several orders of magnitude to at least 10 kW/kg. With Power Densities this high most conventional Energy Applications have the potential of being replaced with an ECAT energy source.
The Rossi Effect is based on a LENR process including Hydrogen and Lithium where Nickel is merely used as a catalyst and is not consumed in the process (some Nickel – Hydrogen reactions occur but the major part of the Nickel is not consumed and can be recycled). The Hydrogen – Lithium reaction is highly exothermic;
1. Li7 + H1 → Be8 → 2He4 + 17.3 MeV,
where the 17.3 MeV (=2.8*10-12J) is released as heat. This is equivalent to an Energy Density (Specific Energy) of 209 million MJ/kg or 58 million kWh/kg or 5 million times the Energy Density of Oil.
ECAT uses Lithium Aluminium Hydride (LiAlH4) as fuel for utilizing the Rossi Effect. The benefit of Lithium Aluminium Hydride as a Fuel Source is that it is a solid and therefore much easier to handle than ordinary Hydrogen Gas. Leonardo Corporation received a US patent for this ECAT process on the 25 Aug 2015.
When heated Lithium Aluminium Hydride decomposes in a three-steps:
1. 3 LiAlH4 → Li3AlH6 + 2 Al + 3 H2 (R1)
2. 2 Li3AlH6 → 6 LiH + 2 Al + 3 H2 (R2)
3. 2 LiH + 2 Al → 2 LiAl + H2 (R3)
(R1) is usually initiated by the melting of Lithium Aluminium Hydride in the temperature range 150–170 °C, immediately followed by decomposition into solid Li3AlH6, although (R1) is known to proceed below the melting point of LiAlH4 as well. At about 200 °C, Li3AlH6 decomposes into LiH (R2) and Al which subsequently convert into LiAl above 400 °C (R3). Reaction (R1) is effectively irreversible. (R3) is reversible with an equilibrium pressure of about 0.25 bar at 500 °C. (R1) and (R2) can also occur at room temperature with suitable catalysts. When Nickel is added as a catalyst Lithium and Hydrogen will start to diffuse into the Nickel Lattice after the decomposition of the Lithium Aluminium Hydride and at high enough temperature, 600 – 1200 °C, the Rossi Effect will kick in and convert Lithium and Hydrogen into Helium under the release of vast amounts of energy.
Especially beneficial is that gamma radiation is naturally absent in the Rossi Effect because the energy is only released as kinetic energy through thermal Helium nuclei which later thermalize the Nickel Lattice and the inner walls of the ECAT reactor core, under impact, turning kinetic energy into thermal energy. This makes the Rossi Effect ideal for utilizing nuclear sized energy in the complete absence of both radioactive materials and radiation.

"I wouldn’t have done well in an Olympiad or a math contest. But I like to ponder. And pondering things, just sort of thinking about it and thinking about it, turns out to be a pretty good approach." - Jim Simons

pj


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Posted: 2015-09-13 16:14

OFFENDERS WILL BE TERMINATED

NeroTulip


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Posted: 2015-09-14 03:44
I have only glanced at this, but what I would like to understand is the following:

Is there a reproducible experiment that is widely accepted by the scientific community that shows anomalous energy generation, and we are just arguing about how this energy was created, or is the experimental result itself -the anomalous energy generation- contested?

Inflatable trader

TSWP


Total Posts: 366
Joined: May 2012
 
Posted: 2015-09-14 10:05
Nero,
from the information I have gathered through the internet (I am following this story since 2011), it appears that Rossi (and recently a few others) have created a reproducible experiment that shows anomalous energy generation. Rossi is the only one that seems to have a product that could be commercialized relatively soon (a 1 MW plant of the size of a cargo container, currently running in an undisclosed facility closed to the public, scrutinized by an independent examiner that should present an official report in early 2016 - a previous report was published in 2014 by a number of scientists from Italy and Sweden).

The scientific community does NOT accept any LENR experimental result at the moment, because they do not know or understand how it works. Based on existing theories, LENR's anomalous energy generation cannot/should not happen.

But it seems it actually happens...

"I wouldn’t have done well in an Olympiad or a math contest. But I like to ponder. And pondering things, just sort of thinking about it and thinking about it, turns out to be a pretty good approach." - Jim Simons

goldorak


Total Posts: 981
Joined: Nov 2004
 
Posted: 2015-09-14 10:58
May be we should not forget that the guys who accept/refute the results are the "I simulate complex systems and tell you that, yes for sure, humanity is doomed", the "I am developing models that do not even fit the data but will for sure prevent the next financial crisis" and the "there is a strong link between your intake of beta-carotene and the weight of your grand-children at age 13.5" guys. I mean, you know, the ones getting the budgets and who do not want to lose them to someone else.

This gives them lots of credibility and of course I tend to trust whatever is credible.



If you are not living on the edge you are taking up too much space.

pj


Total Posts: 3318
Joined: Jun 2004
 
Posted: 2015-09-14 12:19
It is clear for me now...
If
Пархомов Александр Георгиевич
allegedly from Lomonosov State University
and who allegedly reproduced LENR results independently
exists, why I am unable too find him anywhere?

I mean I was looking for him in the Moscow Lomonosov University site.
And in not on I_BELIEVE_IN_ROSSI sites (zillions of those).

Also, why at Researchgate his first articles there are from July 26 2015 only?

I don't speak Chinese, but I am sure that one is also a hoax.

I rest my case Cool

OFFENDERS WILL BE TERMINATED

TSWP


Total Posts: 366
Joined: May 2012
 
Posted: 2015-09-14 15:53
this article from WIRED UK speaks about Parkhomov and some other replicators, but it is a bit outdated: from January 2015.

the author of another article says:
"Parkhomov is a “known” scientist from a highly reputable Institution, Lomonosov Moscow State University, which I have visited on several occasions. He has published work with friends of mine including Yuri Nikolaevich Bazhutov (Chairman of ICCF13 and member of the IAC) and Peter Sturrock (Stanford University). These are both capable senior scientists and their papers published jointly with Parkhomov are credible."

The author is Dr. Michael McKubre, Director of the Energy Research Center of the Materials Research Laboratory at SRI International. He received B.Sc., M.Sc. and Ph.D. in chemistry and physics at Victoria University (Wellington, New Zealand). He was a Postdoctoral Research Fellow at Southampton University, England. Dr. McKubre joined SRI as an electrochemist in 1978. He is an internationally recognized expert in the study of electrochemical kinetics and was one of the original pioneers in the use of ac impedance methods for the evaluation of electrode kinetic processes. Dr. McKubre has been studying various aspects of hydrogen and deuterium in metals since he joined SRI in 1978, the last 25 years with a close focus on heat measurements. He was recognized by Wired magazine as one of the 25 most innovative people in the world. Dr. McKubre has conducted research in CMNS since 1989.

Email: michaelmckubresricom

"I wouldn’t have done well in an Olympiad or a math contest. But I like to ponder. And pondering things, just sort of thinking about it and thinking about it, turns out to be a pretty good approach." - Jim Simons

NeroTulip


Total Posts: 996
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Posted: 2015-09-14 16:01
"I don't believe your experiment because it does not fit my theory" does not strike me as very scientific. Maybe it's a hoax, maybe it isn't, but that's not the way we will find out.

Inflatable trader

pj


Total Posts: 3318
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Posted: 2015-09-14 16:14
The WIRED article is a prime example of a sloppy journalism.

(Try to google Yuri Nikolaevich Bazhutov (Chairman of ICCF13 and member of the IAC))
89 years old crank?
What are these organizations?

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Tradenator


Total Posts: 1579
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Posted: 2015-09-14 16:32
What about this one? With Burton Richter involved, there is somewhat more credibility. I like how they angled the LINACs so they can recoup some of the energy and recycle it back into the drivers.

EDIT: here they seem to be both upping the temperature (with the linear accelerators) and reducing the Coulomb barrier (using H-B instead of D-D fuel).

TSWP


Total Posts: 366
Joined: May 2012
 
Posted: 2015-09-14 18:54
A little clarification: I did not start this thread to promote LENR, Rossi or Parkhomov or whatever.

I started this thread to ask if any of you has seen LENR reactors at work, or if you know directly people that have seen them generating energy and if you/they think it may be a viable, large scale commercial solution for future energy production.

"I wouldn’t have done well in an Olympiad or a math contest. But I like to ponder. And pondering things, just sort of thinking about it and thinking about it, turns out to be a pretty good approach." - Jim Simons

goldorak


Total Posts: 981
Joined: Nov 2004
 
Posted: 2015-09-14 19:46
@PJ

"Sloppy" and "journalism", in the same sentence? How is that even possible? How dare you! Applause

I am very disappointed Zero Hedge does not provide any info regarding LENR.

euh, actually, yes they ...do

If you are not living on the edge you are taking up too much space.

jslade


Total Posts: 1070
Joined: Feb 2007
 
Posted: 2015-09-22 14:01
Re ZH link: Tri Alpha isn't LENR; it's actually a legit fusion semi-breakthrough with sensible and innovative patents.

LENR ... ah, ill calibrated neutron detectors...

"Learning, n. The kind of ignorance distinguishing the studious."

TSWP


Total Posts: 366
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Posted: 2015-09-23 10:53
Continuing on the line of finding out the truth about this story, here is an article from citywire.co.uk, that says that a publicly traded British investment fund called Woodford Patient Capital Trust (UK Stock symbol: WPCT) has invested a portion of its capital in Industrial Heat, LLC, the owner of the LENR reactor developed by Andrea Rossi.

This is the relevant bit:

"WPCT’s unquoted investments look pretty interesting. Most are biotech companies but one that caught my eye was Industrial Heat, a company that is trying to make money from low energy nuclear reactions (aka cold fusion). If it can pull this off it should be worth a fortune, but I’m guessing there will be plenty of sceptics out there."

So the question is: does any of you in the UK know the team at Woodford Patient Capital Trust?

If yes, can you ask them why did they invest in Industrial Heat LLC/Rossi/LENR? Just gambling? or do they see something viable in there?



You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.

TSWP


Total Posts: 366
Joined: May 2012
 
Posted: 2015-09-24 10:34
I'll keep posting stuff when something relevant comes out, here is another bit of evidence:

This press release published by the University of Gothenburg in Sweden says that fusion power could soon be used in small power plants. This means environmentally friendly heat and electricity at a low cost of the fuel. Both heat generators and generators for electricity can be developed within a few years, based on research that has taken place mainly at the University of Gothenburg.

It also says, the research in this area has been supported by GU Ventures AB, the holding company at Gothenburg University. The results have recently been published internationally in three scientific journals.

The press release is in swedish, so use Google translate or similar if you do not speak the language...

You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.

TSWP


Total Posts: 366
Joined: May 2012
 
Posted: 2015-09-28 10:05
This article on Fortune magazine contains an interview to Tom Darden, the founder and CEO of the $2.2 billion private equity fund Cherokee Investment Partners, the main investor in Rossi's LENR reactor (through his parent company Industrial Heat LLC).

Key excerpts:

- "The scientists trying to replicate the work of Fleischman and Pons were mainly looking for nuclear signals, like radiation, which generally are not present. They missed that heat was the main by-product. In addition, I learned that there have been nearly 50 reported positive test results, including experiments at Oak Ridge, Los Alamos, EPRI, and SRI."

- "We don’t know for sure yet whether it [Rossi's LENR reactor] will be commercially feasible. We’ve invested more than $10 million so far in Rossi’s and other LENR technology and we’ll spend substantially more than that before we know for certain because we want to crush all the tests."

- "Recently, we have been joined by Woodford Investment Management in the U.K., which has made a much larger investment into our international LENR activities—so we are well funded."

So I would say that this article answers the question that started the thread: yes, it seems that there is something real in LENR, something worth enough to invest several millions, BUT they do not know yet if this energy source will be commercially viable.

I must say it seems unlikely that both Cherokee and Woodford would invest millions in something completely made up and with not one chance to be real, so as a minimum I would be looking out for updates on their reactor long-term testing results that will be made public in early 2016.




You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.

Tradenator


Total Posts: 1579
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Posted: 2015-09-28 10:27
Get in! What could go wrong? Party

TSWP


Total Posts: 366
Joined: May 2012
 
Posted: 2015-09-28 10:37
Ha.


I tell you what: I'd like to put one on a motor yacht. Large amounts of cheap energy, can sail under electric propulsion for ages, safer than the mini-nuclear engine used by certain polar research vessels. Cool

You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.
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