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LondonPete


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Posted: 2004-11-25 23:38

To come.

Interesting chat in off-topic - a spin-off.

This is Art.


You might very well think that, I couldn't possibly comment.

LondonPete


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Posted: 2004-11-25 23:39

Traditional historiography of the American Revolution has viewed Britain as a tyrannical overlord, deliberately inhibiting the liberties of the American colonists – most famously through taxation without representation.  This old interpretation, for reasons which will become apparent, is incorrect.  The English Americans of this period were “old British” and unable to fully comprehend the changed British society of the post-seventeenth century constitutional reality.


You might very well think that, I couldn't possibly comment.

bloodninja
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Posted: 2004-11-26 01:42

This might be useful:

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. —Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain [George III] is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us, in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty and perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by the Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.


Don't try

Nonius
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Posted: 2004-11-26 05:15
those are fighting words LP.

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Johnny
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Posted: 2004-11-26 08:40
I'm very much looking forward to this. Big Smile

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Nonius
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Posted: 2004-11-26 08:52

Let me guess:

1 those guys stole all their ideas from Hume and Englishmen of The Enlightenment

2. that it wasn't deeply related to a desire to create a democracy since half of them didn't even want a democracy.

 

 


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Johnny
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Posted: 2004-11-26 09:55

I have the feeling that LP is going to say something more interesting than that.


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Nonius
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Posted: 2004-11-26 09:58

I have a feeling that, vacuously, he will not say something more interesting than that.  I am going by precedence of action, or lack thereof.


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LondonPete


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Posted: 2004-11-26 10:10

I must do some reading.

BloodNinja - that is the product of myth.  Anyway, I think most people are aware that few wanted democracy because it would lead to anarchy.  That's no new idea.


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Johnny
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Posted: 2004-11-26 10:12
I share your concern, brother Nonius, but perhaps LP will surprise us all ...

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Nonius
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Posted: 2004-11-26 10:14

I hope so brother Johnny.

anyway LP, understand brother, I understand.  a little a propos, but, I am going to write a critique of "Runic Meaning in Texas Cattle Brands" after I read it.


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bloodninja
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Posted: 2004-11-26 15:50

Don't try

LondonPete


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Posted: 2004-12-03 09:10
I am reading up on this and will have something knocked out in a couple of weeks!

You might very well think that, I couldn't possibly comment.

Nonius
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Posted: 2004-12-05 12:50

LP has been kind enough to provide some artwork for this story as well...


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Nonius
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Posted: 2004-12-05 12:58

Chiral is Tyler Durden

mj


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Posted: 2004-12-05 13:41
Where is this from?


For as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom — for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.

Johnny
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Posted: 2004-12-05 15:29

Edward I (Maleum Scotorum, the Hammer of the Scots) kicked the shits out of the Scots and
brought them under English rule. His son Edward II was made of weaker stuff - his army was
defeated by the Scots at Bannockburn in 1314. In the aftermath, the Scots swore that they would
never be brought under English rule again. The quote above is from the Declaration of Arbroath, a
few years after Bannockburn. Edward II was forced to abdicate by his wife and her lover, in favour
of the child who became Edward III. Edward II was shunted from prison to prison until eventually
he was murdered - the famous incident of the red hot poker up the backside.

 


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bloodninja
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Posted: 2004-12-05 18:36

Yes, I should have seen it coming; now that it is here

I could kick myself for not anticipating it.

Whether or not the State of Nature emerges from the Nature of Man or,

like a Leviathan emerging from the darkest depths, logically illustrates Man's

fundamental contentiousness (thereby rationally and necessarily exposes Man's 

need for somnolent and obsequent haven within a self perpetuating soveign State on

grounds no more nor less then Man's very survival), it remains self evident that within

both the State of Nature and the (antithesis) State of War "every man has a Property

in his own person: This no body has any right to but himself" (ch V. "Second Treatise on

Government" J. Locke 1689). Thus, as God granted to Adam and to Noah as King David

says (psal cxv. 16):

"has given the earth to the children of men"

it is from the origin of Property that all else of Goverance is entailed. Thus, it is of

Man's Prerogative in the context of Conquest, in the context of Usurpation, in the

context of Tyranny, and whence the Dissolution of Government.  

Thus, London Pete's post feminist critique expressed in the absence of Grand Narrative: 

Suburbia as Property (the median American household, wife, dog, 2 cars, 2 kids) juxtaposed

 to the Grand Narrative of George Washington's youthful reconnoiter with a seemingly

absolute moral universe that instead (within a post structural, post modern, post feminist

age of non local and relative interconnectedness) can be seen as no more nor less than a

Beaver (again the post feminist position), terrified, cowering in a corner; wearing a bad wig.   


Don't try

bloodninja
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Posted: 2004-12-09 01:35

Just in case anyone is interested, Locke's 2nd Treatise and Hobbe's Leviathan are both online.

The 2nd treatise is pretty interesting (in and of itself), as is the life of John Locke (and the history of his writings). There's a big difference between Leviathan and the 2nd treatise; in some ways the latter is a response to the former. One of the big difference is a degree of optimism in one (Locke) and pessimism in the other (Hobbes).

Either way, Locke's arguments sort of build up to Property in ch v and off of that chapter in the rest. The basic idea in v is Property as the origin  and explanation of Government; how Just Government relates to the fair treatment / accounting of  Property. But, since God gave all of the earth to mankind the question is how should a Government (a creation of mankind) fairly govern ownership & Property. The proposal in ch v is that each man (all of which are assumed equal) each owns his own body as his original Property. By way of that inherent property each are capable, through their Labor, to aquire further properties outside of themselves (Land / Wealth etc). 

To sum up badly, according to Locke the role of government is within the context of the equality of man, who by way of their fundamental ownership of themselves are capable of translating Labor into material property aquired from the earth given to man's free will by God.   


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Baltazar


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Posted: 2004-12-09 08:53
if i'm not mistaking, Locke's also justifies slavery in his book, wich is rather tedious.
another "weak" point is (again from memory) that rights are given parents to son, that 's if you father is slave, you're one too until freed.
(not sure, been reading it years ago)

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Nonius
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Posted: 2004-12-09 09:08
I'm still waiting for LP's deep ideas.

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James
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Posted: 2004-12-09 09:16
"Yankee Doodle went to London riding on a pony, stuck a feather in his hat and called it macaroni."

"Reality is that which, when you choose not to believe in it, doesn't go away." Phillip K. Dick

Johnny
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Posted: 2004-12-09 10:02
LP's deep ideas are like, soooo last month ...

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LondonPete


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Posted: 2004-12-09 10:16
Last time I looked they are only 905 words.  Now leave me be for a while.

You might very well think that, I couldn't possibly comment.

Nonius
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Posted: 2004-12-09 10:34

I would like an essay on the following topic:

Why is the pound so strong?

Why is London so expensive?

A historical perspective is welcome.


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