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bloodninja
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Posted: 2004-12-13 00:35

Now we're gettin' somewhere. Swirl in the notion of  'worlds': First (what makes it & why), second (there must be one of those somewhere), third (says who), fourth(!?!), fifth (!?!).

These 'worlds' pretty clearly impact the thesis of 'the equality of man' within the State of Nature (real or imagined) on the  Planet of the Apes (the reality). But challenging the axiom of 'man's equality' has been almost a perpetual free for all  of cage match style proportions: Rousseau, Marx, Christ, Plato, Malik Shabazz,  you name it  / just about an -ism that you can think of (colonialism, feminism, what have you ism). Which brings up the swamp of -isms again; many of which LondonPete points out simply for the sake of reading or writing about history.

It gets better. Take specifically for example the one case of the history of India (or Napolean or the Spanish American  war). After a thousand years of trying to figure India (or Napolean or the Spanish American war) from any corner of the swamp of isms you have in the end no explanation beyond some key words and actions (maybe a monument that was built or something was nailed to someone's door or someone was murdered or a spouse was cheated on which sent a short little man with his finger on the trigger in to orbit non linear style).  Instead of some kind of explanation, you have some numbers (a lot of them) and a long long story to tell whose twists and turns are pretty riveting stuff but ultimately is almost strictly incompressible.

With that in mind, back to Fukuyama. That Progress is not progress but instead is everlasting destruction is essentially Luddite and nihilist. Which is funny, since the claim that 'The Big New Thing is Dead' is basically Nietzchean. In other words, the claim that 'The Big New Thing is Dead' is itself dead!

So Fukuyama can't be dead, since Fukuyama killed the notion of saying that the Big New Thing is dead. But probably the most important distinction between Luddites and Fukuyama is that there is in the end no value judgement on his fixed point in liberal democracy where as there is a value judgment on the notion of a "Machine". Whether or not a system evolves to a stationary state the state that it achieves is without value. Instead, it's an empirical reality without aesthetics like the size of a nose on a face. People can judge the nose on the face, but it didn't evolve toward that function of being judged; instead, it evolved toward the function of smelling things. You can have whatever new forms of government you like in the same way that you've had whatever new forms of government you like throughout history. The question is where will those governments tend; Fukuyama argues toward liberal democracies.

Remember, the Iliad was written by Homer as history; which is specifically important to this discussion since the greeks had something very specific to say about Democracy; Aeschylus wrote what that was in the Orestia for which the Greeks  awarded him a wreath.  


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JabairuStork
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Posted: 2004-12-13 00:46
Democracy is bogus and history will prove that is was just a temporary hiccup in the natural state of affairs of mankind, which is tyranny. Democracy as practiced in the United States and to some degree in Europe is a dilletante's game played societies that are so affluent they have no need for any real government and therefore can afford to choose a ridiculous construct like representative democracy.

Man lives either to dominate or to be dominated. Anything else is just pretense.

Unfortunately, it is unlikely that any of us without access to advanced to cryogenics or synthetic bodies will live long enough to see the end of this farce we call democracy. What a pity.

bloodninja
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Posted: 2004-12-13 01:05

Well there you go: The final word.


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bloodninja
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Posted: 2004-12-13 01:26

"Man lives either to dominate or to be dominated. Anything else is just pretense."

So, how 'bout this one: What is the function of medicine in this context of domination, the dominated and or pretense. Well, Hippocrates bandied about this notion about 'do no harm' which is legally enforced in more then one way in this day and age; thus, presummably the history of medicine is nothing more then a  pretense. Treatment of infectious disease (say small pox) is then also a pretense as well; but a pretense of what? Well it must be a pretense of suicidal tendencies right? Since, playing games with small pox will get you killed pretty quick.

But medicine isn't the only altruistic pursuit and instead there are many others  throughout history and societies. Which doesn't illustrate medicine so much as it illustrates the problem of the Darwinian roll of altruism. That problem in turn leads  to consideration of the social behavior of (say) Bonobo apes and or some of Jane Goodall's studies. In the case of bonobo troops it doesn't seem that tyranny plays as much of a roll as fucking does. For chimpanzees it's different. But the difference between bonobos fucking each other constantly and chimpanzees practicing cannabalism, leads one to wonder where we sit; particularly with respect to altruistic behavior in societies.

Perhaps it is indeed tryranny over and above things like 'the golden rule', the Grecian notion of democracy, and or  the son of god nailed willingly and voluntarily to a cross.


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JabairuStork
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Posted: 2004-12-13 05:09
Look homes, let's try not to get all evolutionary up in here. this is supposed to be about government.

Medicine, by the way, is not a particularly strong example of an altruistic pursuit. I pay for health insurance (grudgingly) because I am looking out for my own ass. Doctors work for money. I really don't see a whole lot of altruism in modern health care.

The golden rule: the only golden rule that matters went out the window in 1971.

The Grecian notion of democracy: Let's be specific. It was pretty much just the Athenian notion of democracy, and it was a wonderful but unsustainable anomaly. Give me a city-state where only 8,000 guys actually own anything, and you got politicians of the caliber of Pericles, and just about any form of government should work fine.

The son of god nailed to a cross: That's a nice bedtime story for little kids.

Anyway, tyranny does not preclude altruism. Although we associate the term with major a*holes like Joey Stalin, there is plenty of scope for decent people to exercise absoulte power. While, in general, rule by a small elite or a single person is bad, rule by the majority is worse.

Any society that doesn't get a decent revolution or some other shot of anarchy once every 50 years is bound to decay. That's why Latin America has some of the healthiest states in the world.

bloodninja
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Posted: 2004-12-13 14:22

For what is worth, the concept of 'evolution' is at the very least tangentially related both to the topics of government and history; due in part to ideas like 'The State of Nature' = 'The Planet of the Apes', 'Progress', and Fukuyama (who incidentally works bioethics among other things). People like Locke and Hobbes, both of whom adressed tyranny explicitly, also addressed some sort of 'Natural laws' governing Man's place in 'Nature' (e.g., prior to the governments known since men lived in caves) as origins of their explanations for their particular preferred form of government. The concepts of 'evolution', primatology and or anthropological considerations then aren't too much of stretch from the particular dialogue at hand. Granted they are slightly divorced from the question of the myth of the american revolution, but with respect to the proposal of a fixed point in liberal democracy (whether there is indeed one or not) the concepts of 'evolution' isn't too far off.

By medicine, I meant medicine in general: Hippocrates, Galen, and (say) the WHO's eradication of smallpox (over and above things like 'Doctors' and 'Health Care' in America). Locke was a physician; I think that that impacted his particular optimism since physicians are strange people who voluntarily elect to serve a strange sector of the population: The diseased. Physicians are then in many respects 'unusual'  people and it just so happens that Locke was a physician. It is true that physicians and others involved in medicine are paid for their services but it isn't entirely clear that medicine is exclusively about domination (which was my point). Also, Hippocrates in his ideals of medicine clarifies how payment for services should be rendered. That aside, here's a more modern  example of how 'weird' the governance and economy of medicine can be:  In what is called 'emergency medicine' it is legally mandated (by almost every government world wide) that all emergent cases are to be treated irrespective of a patient's ability to pay (and that comes from the State and is executed by physicians and others). Emergency medicine (in say urban America) invariably includes  indigent populations, violent crimes, and infectious disease all of which equates to HIV exposure without the ability of the patient to 'pay' (since we are talking emergency medicine here). A classic (and typical) example, is a gun shot wound to the chest with vitals in the field followed with no vitals on the table. That means an exploratory thoracotomy, which in turn means the physician (and who ever else is standing around the table) are probably going to be up to their elbows in the patient's blood and at the very least will literally be standing in pools of the patients blood.  My point isn't how dramatic that is, but how weird that is from the angle of domination, since the specific point about emergency thoracotomy of indigent patients is that the possibility (odds) of exposure to infectious disease (HIV) through (say) a needle stick of the physician or whoever else is involved is enormous.   The strangest point of all about this common scenario is that the chances of a gun shot wound to the chest with vitals in the field followed by none on the table followed by exploratory thoracotomy living through all of that is almost zero. And this is all handed down in a variety of ways by the state. Yes, the physician (and others involved) will be paid but the patient won't and isn't expected to make the payment. Obviously, this is altruism by the physicians and others involved and by the state itself, since the state is present throughout in a variety of ways.

Perhaps Athenian democracy was an anomaly in antiquity and amongst the city states. But, in line with the American revolution, some notions (not all) were resurrected from Athens and imported (in some ways) to the American colonies when they sat around in their Congresses. Following that the Athenian notions of democracy implanted in part in the early american government then went through whatever history it was that it went through; which is pretty clearly a global history that has to date impacted virtually every corner of the globe (for good or evil / real or imagined). That says something (irrespective of how good it's been at meeting it's objectives).

Whether or not Christianity is truth, Christianity is one of the strangest most counter intuitive proposals the world has ever seen; particularly from the perspective of a 'King' that proposes both altruism and a sword. The contradictions in Christianity are pretty profound (whether or not Christianity is truth): A King who sides with prostitutes, the diseased, the indigent, in short... the meek and who is killed by them even though he knows that they are going to kill him. Again, whether or not Christianity is truth Christianity clearly has something to say about domination and tyranny. Most importantly I think, whether or not Christianity is truth it clearly had an immense and lasting impact world wide.  


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Nonius
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Posted: 2004-12-30 13:35
Then Croke said, "What the phuck dude, where's the analysis?"

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James
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Posted: 2005-01-04 14:01
"Perhaps Athenian democracy was an anomaly in antiquity and amongst the city states. But, in line with the American revolution, some notions (not all) were resurrected from Athens and imported (in some ways) to the American colonies when they sat around in their Congresses. Following that the Athenian notions of democracy implanted in part in the early american government then went through whatever history it was that it went through; which is pretty clearly a global history that has to date impacted virtually every corner of the globe (for good or evil / real or imagined). That says something (irrespective of how good it's been at meeting it's objectives)."

You need to read the Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers to get some perspective on this. The American Founding Fathers actually debated, quite extensively, the concepts of a 'republic' as expositied by Plato, and the Athenian 'democracy' (which failed, BTW, and in ists last days was nothing but an oligarchy: a fact the AmFF knew). They debated this in the context of knowledge of British Parliment, and the English Civil Wars. The opted for a 'republic' and not an athenian 'democracy' precisely because of the weaknesses inherent in democracy, i.e. tyrany of the majority. From the English Civil Wars and Charles Ists 'personal rule' period, they knew a balance of powers were needed, with a parliment and an 'executive,' each with differing methods of direct democratic election. BTW, the Senate originally was composed of representatives appointed by either Governors or State legislators, and weren't elected. American 'democracy' was a very far piece from the Athenian variety with all these in the construct.

"Reality is that which, when you choose not to believe in it, doesn't go away." Phillip K. Dick

Nonius
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Posted: 2005-01-31 16:08
where's my phucking proof that A!=B? I vote for a nuke of LP.

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LondonPete


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Posted: 2005-02-01 01:06

Nonius: I vote for a nuke of LP.

Why?


You might very well think that, I couldn't possibly comment.

Nonius
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Posted: 2005-02-01 06:57
I want my essay. Angry

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Nonius
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Posted: 2005-02-01 14:47

mkay, LP, MOFO, let us start with some simple questions:

1. Why was there a revolution?

2. what were these motherfuckers thinking?

3. what was it really like, really truthfully like to be in the body of a relatively wealthy colonist? write a story about this mofo.*

4. if you were chillin in a land that had no known (or little known) physical boundaries, then, how would that experience shape your views, mores, etc?  what would be the equivalent of that frame of mind today?  did the weather matter? did the fact that you were constantly faced with a daily struggle for survival matter? or, is that all bullshit and maybe life on the eastern seaboard was pretty close to life in London in the 18th century?

 


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kr
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Posted: 2005-02-01 15:59

yeah - one more too

5. Why not colonialism now?  Hasn't all this corporates-run-the-government been done before in the spirit of profits?  And if you think that economic colonialism is alive and well, tell us about it.  All about it.

clock's ticking, written essay due when the bell rings


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Nonius
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Posted: 2005-02-01 16:47

I'll start, or at least create a template....

Imagine this. You are the head of a large company that produces a product that millions of people use every day.  <<.....fill in a bunch of stuff that makes the reader think that he is imagining that he is Gates, or someone like that...>>.  You look at your calender, and what year do you see? 2005? wrong motherfucker!  You are way off!  You are soooo six months ago!  You are sooooo 250 years ago! We are talking 17xx (fill in appropriate xx)!  You are Archibald B. Reckonwith, purveyor of <<fill in some type of commodity that a bunch of europeans liked back in 17xx and that was produced in the colonies>>

<<more stuff that compares what Archie thinks about compared with today.  make some analogies between his issues and those of, say, halliburton, then, lead this into a wild AngloDelicious irony that Halliburton IS a US company and that it is, ironically, doing a bunch of contracts with IrAQ and that, ironically, XYZ, and that, therefore, ironcially, A!=B cannot possibly be true.>>


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Johnny
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Posted: 2005-02-01 16:53

LOL! The East India Company is the template here. The commodity was tea, the Invasion of Iraq was the Opium Wars (in which the Navy compelled the Chinese to keep buying Opium from the Brits) and blalalalalblalablablablabalblabaala ...

 


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Nonius
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Posted: 2005-02-01 16:55

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok, I reazlly need to stop laughing.....this is great....LOL!!!ROFML or whatever you say.


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kr
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Posted: 2005-02-01 17:09
guys - this is LP's paper, let the boy write first!! then you vipers can tear his work to shreds.  All about creative destruction, yes?

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Nonius
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Posted: 2005-02-01 17:12

creative structure demolition?

anyway, I like my entreé....he could work with that one nicely, hehehehe.


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Johnny
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Posted: 2005-02-01 17:20

It's been sooo long since LP threatened to write his paper that we need a historian to tell us what LP would have said. Yay, recursive history:

{
A historian discusses now ...
{
... what LP would have said 6 months ago ...
{
... about what happened in the ...
.
.
.
}
... blalalbabla
}
... blablabla
}
            


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kr
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Posted: 2005-02-01 17:31

it was a dark and stormy night

three men sat around a campfire

one stood up... this is the story he told:

"it was a dark and ....


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Nonius
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Posted: 2005-02-01 17:32
where the hell is bloodninja, his contributions to this thread cracked me UP!!!!!!

Chiral is Tyler Durden

LondonPete


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Posted: 2005-02-02 01:07

Uh hu OK.  I doubt you'll actually like it but I shall resurrect what I started and post with an uncopyable PDF with citations and it'll come in <7 days.

Johnny: East India Company
What ever they did n stuff, LP regularly enjoys a great derivative of this.

KR: guys - this is LP's paper, let the boy write first!! then you vipers can tear his work to shreds.  All about creative destruction, yes?
Yes, yes, I was hoping for more of this sort of jazz.  Sounds far more equitable.  I'm not fickin' John Adamson!

You know I think Johnny has a point: "The historiogrpahical significance of LondonPete's threatened October paper - how has this affected the evolution of the history of the Virginian Anabaptists in the last 5 months?"  I think this to be a highly important area of study and no doubt a wryly individual at one of Britain's venerable institutions will usefully invest their time in such an investigation for a Ph.D thesis.  //Satire nevertheless.


You might very well think that, I couldn't possibly comment.

Nonius
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Posted: 2005-02-02 14:16
pooofda.  get your shit together and write my essay.

Chiral is Tyler Durden

LondonPete


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Posted: 2005-02-02 14:20
Nonius: my essay
Copyright will actually belong to Peter London a.k.a. LondonPete.

You might very well think that, I couldn't possibly comment.

Johnny
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Posted: 2005-02-02 14:40

A little less conversation ... a little more action.

 

Thankyouverymuchhh


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